Get The Pros Out

[plfishfingers]

Hi Eveyone
I am pretty pissed off and if you are easily offended I suggeset you read no further. If you love fishing Pittwater then wade through my emotions and take note of what is happening to our beloved waterway.
You have all heard me complain about the commercial fishermen that work Pittwater but now is the time to stand up and be counted.
I have been fishing Pittwater for 15 years with the last 3 years running fishing charters chasing Kingfish.
In August we caught over 20 kingfish with every fish over 75cm and the largest a 90cm brute. In August this equated to 1 kingfish per charter landed. We lost more big fish than I want to think about. This was the first time in 10 years that the kingfish were in enough numbers to target. These fish were ( and I do mean WERE ) the resident fish of the river.
In September the number of landed kingfish had risen to a healthy 56 kingfish equating to 2.2 fish over 75cm landed.
In October we thought we were going to have a blinder of a summer. October produced 86 kingfish and most fish were now new season visitors of 65cm to 75cm. This equated to just over 3 kingfish landed each charter. This seems like a lot of kingfish but you must remember that we promote tag and release which equated to 40 fish released over the above-mentioned period of time.
On November 3rd 2005 the first of the bastards moved in and started raping the river. Over night we went from great fishing to no fish.
Reliable reports from a couple of extemely cranky locals told me that the 2 mornings that these rapists unloaded their boats they counted around 1000 fish being unloaded. They flogged everything.
December is half way over and we are still waiting for more fish to arrive.
To say I was and am still pissed is the understatement of the year but I feel I am to blame as well. I stuidly reported to everyone where they were and unfortunately these commerical operators can read as well. Well most can.
Today I was told that over the last week that investigations officers collected evidence against 6 arseholes. These operators were mesh netting, illegally trapping and a host of other wonderful illegal ways to reap havoc on a river. There is a heap more that still have not been caught.
The DPI is the one department that is to blame for the whole mess. The head of this department stated "The DPI will not do anything to harm the commercial sector". What the hell does he think us charter operators are?
They are closed minded when it comes to BOOTING OUT THE PROS. With Ronald McDonald running the show, myself as a commercial operator or yourself as a rec fisho will not see the pros out of any more estuaries. Boot the idiot I say and at the bottom of this page you will find his email address to write a email to.
Do not make your letter one of emotion as they will treat it as such. Please write a letter that states that Pittwater is too valuable to the local economy as a recreational fishing ground. The money our sport generates into the local area is incredible.
Ask why the residence of Pittwater and those around Sydney are not as important as those on Botany Bay?
Why do we pay for the privilage to fish yet we see no benefit to our local area?
Why do they use our money to buy out offshore operators that target fish that most of us are unable to afford to catch?
200 million dollars to buy out those that can NO LONGER make a living netting Gemfish etc, why not spend a 10th of this amount and make Pittwater/Hawkesbury River a Rec Ground only?
Instead spend 10 million on buying out the pros and the rest to fisheries officers to patrol at night. Put a roster in place that rotates DPI officers on commercial vessels every night.
Why arent transponders fitted to every commercial vessel on the water so they can be seen clearly at anytime?
Why are commercial operators allowed to move from one river system to another placing undue on fishing stocks up and down the coast?
Why does it only cost them approximately $85 to be allowed to do so.
The DPI allows haul netting over and through the weed beds at this time of the year in Pittwater, why?
Why does the DPI allow more operators into Pittwater when a 40 year local pro can no longer LEGALLY make a living from the area. (until the Manly Daily story he was the last one left)
It has come to my attention that there was a meeting organised to deal with the elimination of Pros out of Pittwater.
Why wasnt this meeting advertised in the media, regular media, radio as a community announcement or even in the regular section of a state wide paper as a story? ( dont let them reply it was in the Public Notices Section of the papers as this is a cope out)
These are just a few of the immediate issues that need to be explained and addressed. This is without even mentioning the fiasco with the unused old licences that always resurface shortly after a buy out.
Thank you all for reading my ravings and I hope you will all email the fisheries minister (notice how I didnt use any capitals, he doesnt deserve the effort of hitting the extra button on the key board)
He will have to answer all the questions if he is asked enough times, so we can all see where we really stand.
Get them out of Pittwater.
macdonald.office@macdonald.minister.nsw.gov.au

[JOC00L]

It has come to my attention that there was a meeting organised to deal with the elimination of Pros out of Pittwater.

Pete, thats the first I have heard of that meeting. Has it past or is it still to be held?

As much as I like to think that we are making a difference, everytime a story like this comes out, it is only a few of the usual suspects that will actually print up a letter to voice their opinion! Unfortunately, ranting and raving and jumping up and down on forums does not equate to doing something!

So to those that have never done so...GET INVOLVED! If you don't excercise the right to protect your passion YOU WILL LOSE IT!

And for those that do regularly get involved....keep at it gentlemen!

[bluecod]

Pete,

That's bloody disgraceful - we know it, the blokes doing it know it and the politicians know it as well. Unfortunately for a bloke who is allegedly intelligent, if Ronald MacDonald was a match he wouldn't have enough brains to make a spark.

Stuff like this could be brought to the attention of Rod Burston, CEO of ECOfishers [who also look out for blokes like you] to provide them with more ammunition - post it up on Fish Tales - Rod will find it.

[Peril]

I just sent the following to Sandra Nori, Minister for Tourism and Sport and Recreation <min@nori.minister.nsw.gov.au>:

Dear Minister,

As a keen recreational fisherman, I thought I would bring to your attention the following, posted to a recreational fishing forum by a fishing charter operator, operating in Pittwater. It is a story clearly borne out of frustration.

http://www.sydneyfishfinder.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1162#1162

Before you answer that fishing clearly falls within the responsibility of the Hon Ian Macdonald and the Department of Primary Industries allow me to make a small case for recreational fishing to at least have some oversight by the Department of Tourism and Sport and Recreation.

The Department of Primary Industries is primarily interested in the generation of revenue through sustainable primary production. Thus, in the specific case of fishing, their interest lies chiefly in promoting sustainable commercial fishing. While regulating all fishing in order to promote sustainability of the fishing stocks, it is clear where their primary interest lies and they cannot be blamed for acting accordingly.

Yet when the total contribution to the economy of fishing is counted, the overwhelming majority comes from the recreational sector. This is not surprising. A great many people fish at least a couple of times a year and there is a significant number that fish frequently. They buy charters, tackle, boat equipment, bait, and, importantly, accommodation, fuel, and meals in pursuit of there leisure. This expenditure was estimated in a report commissioned by the DPI in 2003 (http://www.fisheries.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/4967/syd-survey.pdf) to be in excess of $800 million per year (non-capital).

I believe that recreational fishing, being a leisure activity rather than an income producer, should have some oversight by the Department of Tourism and Sport and Recreation. Clearly it is a significant part of the tourism and recreation undertaken within NSW and it is in the interests of all in NSW for it to be promoted.

Clearly it is necessary for one body to manage the fishery, for the sake of us all and future generations. However, it is important that the overall economic interest of NSW is considered, rather than the lop-sided approach necessitated by having fisheries exclusively the preserve of DPI. Also, there is no reason why many bodies cannot be involved in promoting the interests of the various groups involved in fishing.

Traditionally, recreational fishers have not been well organised. Their attempts to organise have often been clumsy and unsuccessful. Some have pursued single interest political parties, which historically have received little attention from voters. Their own organisations have been divided by questions of politisation. Finally, most recreational fishers just want to fish.

I submit to you that the Department of Tourism and Sport and Recreation can make a valuable contribution in promoting recreational fishing as a recreation within NSW and in making input on behalf of recreational fishers to the DPI on matters of policy in managing the fishery. In particular, I belive the the department should seek representation on the body managing the expenditure of monies raised by the recreational fishing licence to ensure that such expenditure is in the interests of licence holders.

I would be pleased to meet with members of your department to discuss this matter further.

Yours faithfully
<name & address>

I will post any response

[bluecod]

Well done Dave :D

Bet the response goes something like this [but I hope you get the hearing you/we deserve];

Dear Mr ****,

I refer to your recent correspondence regarding *****, the Minister has asked me to respond on her behalf. [read - she's currently abroad at the taxpayer's expense on a fact finding tour - Xmas recess]

The issues you raise lie within the portfolio of Ronald MacDonald and your letter has been brought to his attention.

Yours faithfully,

Paid to do what I'm told.

[Peril]

Not expecting any more George, but had to give it a go.

[bluecod]

Dave,

Of course, and you did a bloody good letter too - ever think about offering some of that eloquent talent to ECOfishers or at least posting on their forum http://www.fishnitis.com/fishing-board/index.php

[neilm]

great letter. I have copied it (hope this is OK) and amended it slightly and sent it to the local state member Alex McTaggart as well.
FYI his email if you want to do the same is pittwater@parliament.nsw.gov.au
Cheers,
Neil

[JOC00L]

great letter. I have copied it (hope this is OK) and amended it slightly and sent it to the local state member Alex McTaggart as well.
FYI his email if you want to do the same is pittwater@parliament.nsw.gov.au
Cheers,
Neil
If you amended it to sanitise it, I wouldn't! Send it as written to show the frustration and angst that we all face!

Good work on your part too Dave!

[Peril]

Neil, I hope you fixed the typos. I'll send it to my local member, but without expectation.

[neilm]

Lads,
I didn't sanitise it, I just changed the references to the various departments so that it would look like it was written specifically directed at the local member. There too much good stuff in there to tamper with either Pete's message or Peril's great letter.
Cheers,
Neil

[neilm]

I have posted a quick note on ECOfishers referring to this thread.
I wrote to macdonald as well - see below(had to be a quick one as I'm at work).
I've also asked the ECOfisher guys for advice how we can somehow get the profile raised.
Cheers,
Neil.
PS Hope you all have a great Chrissy

Dear Minister,
As a keen recreational fisherman, I would like to know what is going on with professional fishing in the Pittwater waterway. My understanding is that there have been illegal activities that have basically desecrated fish stocks over the past few weeks.
Since the introduction of the fishing licence scheme, I am hearing of excellent results in other waterways (eg Botany Bay and Sydney Harbour) when professional fishermen are being limited or bought out, but I am very keen to know what is happening in Pittwater and the mighty Hawkesbury River. These areas have economic models that are heavily reliant on tourism, and of this tourism a very large percentage is recreational fishing tourism. The leisure industries along Palm Beach, including Boat Hire, Pubs, Hotels and Motels are all reliant at least in part to a sustainable fishing industry, not to mention the dedicated tackle and bait outlets. There are also a huge number of boating outlets and related light industries all around the Mona Vale, Bayview and Church Point areas that need to rely on the trade associated with recreational fishing. The activities that have been mentioned above are seriously threatening the fish stocks in Pittwater.
I ask that you act now to protect our right to fish, and show us some value from our licence, after all, this is what the licence scheme is supposed to do.
Please let me know what plans there are to create a sustainable recreational fishery in Pittwater.
Yours Faithfully,

[Grantm]

WOW, Its great to see some more people starting to voice their thoughts. :D

I would like to raise one issue in regards to Pete's fantastic post, and the post from Jon Jenkins in regards to the "TOP 10 LIES" which was also a great post and interesting reading.

Pete, your saying the Kingfish population is being wiped out in Pittwater that your catch rate is shrinking, and Jon claims as point No 1 that "No rec targetted fish are under stress let alone threatened"

Now seing we are all trying to achieve the same thing, this just seems a little odd. Am I missing something ? I know Jons Top 10 is in response to Marine Parks and not estuaries but its a pretty big statement nonetheless.

ECOFishers seems to be supporting some sustainable pro activity whilst many totaly oppose pro activity. There needs to be some common ground with this issue in my opinion.

Although I believe that there is a market for some sustainable pro fishing activity, I totaly agree that Pittwater and the Hawkusbury must become RFH's,

Any thoughts?

[plfishfingers]

Hi Everyone
Thank you all for your letters that have been written but we need a lot more so please spread the word.
Grantm again thanks for your support. I am at a lose as to who Jon is but he is entitled to his opinion. Sure kingfish are not on the endangered list but I have the figures to prove my point. I have reports for everyday on the water with all captures listed. I dont believe that anyone can state that the kingfish stocks are not under threat in Pittwater.
Our figures for the last 2 years in Spring and Summer show a huge drop in fish numbers to this year.
Before the Pros came in and desimated the resident stocks of kingfish the fishing was great. Overnight we went from great fishing to CRAP. Overnight we went from baitfish on every wreck only 2 schools left. These baitfish were along the entire river 5.5km of it. Out of some 20 odd wrecks that I sounded 2 wrecks had small schools of yakkas. The water temp was stable so the fish didnt up and move to another area because of cold water or moving baitfish. The schools of baitfish were present on all the wrecks for 2 months before the Pro fishermen.
This all happened on the 3rd of Nov and we caught our first kingfish yesterday for over a week. He was a loner with no other following fish and another wasnt seen by any of the 4 boats that were chasing them yesterday.
We trolled for 14 hours yeasterday and came up with 1 fish. Dec is traditionally the month when all starts to go crazy on the kingfish front.
December figures so far this month are worse than Nov.
Can you ask Jon for me when was the last time he spent 1200 hours on the water in a 12 month period chasing kingfish. This has been my average for the last 3 years. He might also like to answer where he got his information from, The Enemy?
I am not an alarmist, I am a realist.
Simply the amount of Pros both legal and illegal operators are having a detremental effect on Pittwater.
Just look at the fiasco that is happening at this very second.
The DPI has declared that the haulers are no longer to operate along the Barrenjoey Headland on the weed beds. They want us to believe that we are getting something to help our cause.The real reason is due to the spread of the notoius weeds that are spead due to them hauling over weed beds. The infestation was first found in Careel Bay. This infestation is now also around Scotland Island and along various sections of the river. Instead of stopping them from fishing they move them up the river further so they can spread it around even further. The truth is that they only found out about the new spread of the weed after the Pros told the DPI.
How many other areas have small clumps of this weed and how long before it is spread even further by them dragging their nets along the bottom?
My guess is the the DPI has no idea of the extent that the weed has spread. Why play catch up and declare it a disater zone after it has spread beyond help.
Pittwater is in a shambles and needs help!
Stop the haulers I say, before its too late.

[Grantm]

Now thats what I call a post !

Mate Jon's qualification's speak for themselves, and he is a highly respected campaigner for rec fishing and against marine parks. ( corect me if thats wrong Jon) He does post here and on other forums.

Im sure he will respond.

[Blacky]

G'day Everyone,
As a rec fisho who use to fish Pittwater every weekend this is a very alarming topic and one that everyone needs to take action on. Not only has the Kingfish population and I assume other fish poulations that the Pros have caught been decimated but also the impact they have on the marine ecology and this is what concerns me the most.
Juvenile fish rely on the sea grass as a sanctuary and also as their feeding grounds. Predator fish rely on the juvenile fish as their food source so if there is no sea grass there are no juvenile fish and therefore no predators.
I am have sent an email to both Ian Macdonald and Alex McTaggart and will forward it onto the Manly Daily to see if they will write a story. The more people who know the better.

Cheers and have a Happy and safe Christmas and New Year
Blacky

[Peril]

I would like to raise one issue in regards to Pete's fantastic post, and the post from Jon Jenkins in regards to the "TOP 10 LIES" which was also a great post and interesting reading.

Pete, your saying the Kingfish population is being wiped out in Pittwater that your catch rate is shrinking, and Jon claims as point No 1 that "No rec targetted fish are under stress let alone threatened"

Now seing we are all trying to achieve the same thing, this just seems a little odd. Am I missing something ? I know Jons Top 10 is in response to Marine Parks and not estuaries but its a pretty big statement nonetheless.

Grant, let's not confuse rhetoric (very useful) with science (also very useful) or observation (ditto). Jon is providing the first of these and Pete the third. We actually haven't seen much of the second.

It's also possible for both to be correct. A species can be unthreatened in general but be threatened or at least stressed in a particular locale. One might also assume that where we are stilled permitted to take a given species that there is an expectation that that harvest is sustainable so it isn't threatened. So the statement that recreational species aren't threatened is a truism, as species under threat are barred to recreational fishers. However, there is no doubting Pete's observations that commercial operations have severely depleted kingfish stocks in Pittwater, at least in the short term.

I think you'll find that Jon's qualifications are not in marine science (in fact I think I used to work with him at a certain telco). This is not to diminish anything he argues or his value in promoting our interests.

[Grantm]

Maybe both are correct but im sure poor that doesnt make Pete feel any better or any one else who fishes Pittwater. Im sure he wont appreciate other groups fighting for the rec angler saying no species is under threat.

One thing is for sure and that is there is more than one arguement going on.

Some sectors of rec anglers will say pro fishing is out of control and the targetted species in their area are practically gone, therefore they are fighting to reduce pro fishing. ie Hawkesbury.

Some are saying Marine Parks and lockouts are no good and their is no threat to rec species by anglers or even by pro activity, and that these parks are a threat to rec angling.

Now the same rec fisho's who want the pros gone are finding out about Marine Parks and are also fighting to stop them, but finding the groups opposed to marine parks do in fact support pro fishing and say fish stocks are ok.

Im getting very confused by all this. Im only learning as I go here and dont profess to know much about anything, but its really hard to find a solid direction.

I want to support blokes like Pete who fish a major waterway devoid of fish from overfishing pro's, and I also want to support ECOFishers who are trying to oppose MARINE parks but perhaps dont feel fish stocks are under threat.

Who is right, who is wrong someone please help ! :shock: :?

[bluecod]

Who is right, who is wrong?

Grant, I haven't been able to come up with a quick response for that question.

In a diverse society there will always be decisions made that are unpleasant to various segments of the community and the trick is to find the best solution that most can live with. I think it is unrealistic to think we will have a world where there will be no commercial fishing [as in traps and nets] and that all seafood will come from aquaculture - perhaps one day but I hope not.]

It appears the Marine Park drama is the State's greedy response to International agreements signed off by the Federal Govt - sure it also has to do with preferential voting, but where a close to broke Government is being offered dollars to create Marine Parks, that is what they'll do.

I think the real fight here is with the Greens who would like nothing better than to ban all fishing, hunting and stepping on ants. Let's face it the Marine Parks will be put in place those decisions have already been made according to the grants handed out by the Feds. If the Greens get their way there will be no fishing permitted. If the recreational anglers can put more pressure on Government than the Greens, fishing lockouts will be minimised.

[neilm]

OK, I've now sent the following letter to the Many Daily for what it's worth.
(FYI editor@manlydaily.com.au)
Please lend your help and sent them a letter too!
Thanks,
Neil

To the Editor,

Food for thought these Summer Holidays.

If you are a visitor to or resident in beautiful Pittwater this summer, chances are that you'll induldge in a spot of recreational fishing.
With Narrabeen Lagoon to the south, the beaches to the east and Pittwater to the west, we are spoilt by the choice we have in terms of location.
But we have a problem.
The lack of fish.
The problem (particularly on Pittwater) seems to be caused by illegal net fishermen. There were licenced fishmen allowed to ply their trade in Pittwater (indeed, the Manly Daily ran an article on this very subject), and now the Department of Primary Industries has declared that the haulers are no longer to operate along the Barrenjoey Headland on the weed beds, and as a result the haulers are now doing this in a clandestine manner, or are moving to other areas. This in itself is causing another problem in that it is assisting in the spread of noxious weed attached to the nets of these 'fishers' that chokes the natural weedbeds.
Since the introduction of the fishing licence scheme, I am hearing of excellent results in other waterways (eg Botany Bay and Sydney Harbour) when professional fishermen are being limited or bought out, and I am very keen to know what is happening in Pittwater and the mighty Hawkesbury River. These areas have economic models that are heavily reliant on tourism, and of this tourism a very large percentage is recreational fishing tourism. The leisure industries along the shores of Pittwater, including Boat Hire, Pubs, Hotels and Motels are all reliant at least in part to a sustainable fishing industry, not to mention the dedicated tackle and bait outlets. There are also a huge number of boating outlets and related light industries all around the Mona Vale, Bayview and Church Point areas that need to rely on the trade associated with recreational fishing.
The illegal activities that have been mentioned above are seriously threatening the fish stocks in Pittwater. We will soon lose the people who flock to the Northern Beaches to take a break and induldge in a spot of fishing if this mess isn't cleared up.
We need the DPI to treat the residents of Pittwater equally to those residents who are lucky enough to have had action taken on their behalf (ie. the residents of Botany Bay and Sydney harbour and the surrounding areas). We must also be careful not to go the other way and declare Pittwater a sanctuary, after all, the is significant evidence that sanctuary zones are ineffective as fisheries management tools.

[flanks]

pete
i have just found this sight, i could not agree more about the kingfish tap being turned of over nite in pittwater. I see you out there in the mornings around scotland island. i too was catching kingfish from my kayak early mornings at ****** i havn't seen or caught one for over a month.have you spoken to the guys at 2KY ( HIGHTIDE )about the rape of pittwater?
if kingfish were covered with fur they would soon stop the netting.

[sydnemb]

An issue may be the displacement of pros with valid licences from their local areas, where fishing havens or other protected areas have been introduced. I have heard they may move around, eg to Sydney. Anyone know if this is true? If they are not locals here, they would have no reason to look for a long term sustainable harvest of any species, as many of the local pros have done for some time now. Then surely the answer would be to limit pros to one area, cos if they raped it like this, they'd be out of business in a day. Hard to run a zero income business for three or four years while the fish recover... And you'd get done on the price takin and trying to sell all the fish at once cos u got an oversupply of perishable goods.

[Martin]

Well done guys, Lets give them curry and protect Pittwater and the Hawkesbury.
I love to fish and I love the area, however what has happened is a disgrace.

The area deserves better and should be on par with Botany Bay.

I will be sending a letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Martin

[plfishfingers1]

Hey everyone
Just a short note to say thank you to everyone that has written to the DPI etc. Watch the Telegraph tommorrow or Monday for the first of the attacks that will be launched at the DPI. I havent seen the article yet but the reporter is a fisherman himself and is prepared to ask the DPI for some answers.
He referred to the traveling commercial fisherman as Vikings. Raping and pilaging distant shores leaving the area bare and locals in disbelief. AINT THAT THE TRUTH.

Hope that more people will jump on board and that my boat is still floating come the following day of the report in the papers.

All the best
Peter

[Peril]

Neil, I hope you fixed the typos. I'll send it to my local member, but without expectation.

I got the following response from my local member (Andrew Humpherson, Davidson) a couple of days ago:

Hi Dave

I will make representations on your behalf and will be interested in the reply. I have also taken the liberty of forwarding it to the Shadow Minister Duncan Gay for his information.

regards Andrew

Don't know if it means anything. Still waiting for a response from Sandra Nori.

[JOC00L]

On most occasions I have dealt with Duncan Gay I have found him most helpful and understanding. What he can do though is another matter.:confused:

[neilm]

Good on you Peril. I wish I could report positive feedback. I did get a letter published in the Manly Daily last Saturday, but I haven't heard anything from either Alex McTaggart or MacDonald at the DPI.
Will keep on making a nuisance of myself.
Cheers,
Neil

[plfishfingers1]

Good on you Guys.
Great to read your letter in the Manly Daily Neil and its good you at least got a response Dave.
My next Fishing News Monthly Article is going to point out a few of Pittwaters Problem. I wrote mostly about the Caulpera Weed and took a couple of swipes at the DPI as well as the traveling Pros.
Will have to wait for the March edition though.
Keep on making noise about the situation and eventually someone from the government will answer our questions.
All the best and good fishing
Plfishfingers

[Tony]

Edit: Wrong info

[JOC00L]

Pete, thought you might be happy to see this....

"Meanwhile, federal Fisheries and Forestry Minister Ian Macdonald has revealed he will not be reappointed to the ministry under the reshuffle.

The Queensland senator says Mr Howard informed him of the decision last Thursday."

Lets hope whoever takes over isn't as blind as old Ronald...

Wrong Minister Tony. Senator Ian Macdonald is the federal Fisheries Minister. NSW Fisheries minister is also an Ian Macdonald, commonly reffered to as Ronald. He is still in!:mad::mad:

[Simple Truths]

Having been out with Pete and enjoyed the benefits of his experience and skill, I experienced first hand the impact of the Pros who netted the Pittwater. All who fish it regularly know it, but for me the comparison between before and after the netting was startling. This kind of fish slaughter is an act of environmental degradation, and needs science and good old fashioned PR spin to stop it.

Nothing will hurt Minister Macdonald like poor publicity and lost votes. His inability to respect the views of all users illustrates how out of depth he is.

We need friends in the media to publicise the Rape of Pittwater.

Time to talk to some PR agencies.

JOC

[Tony]

Wrong Minister Tony. Senator Ian Macdonald is the federal Fisheries Minister. NSW Fisheries minister is also an Ian Macdonald, commonly reffered to as Ronald. He is still in!:mad::mad:

Ah fair enough Joe...

I wasn't aware there were two people by the same name...